Castle Creations XLX-2 just released

[ARRMA King]

Yes I’m open to the possibility of a quality control issue in the assembly line. I know all about mfg quality acceptance risks.

however his test and resulting comments make me think about if somebody (if we haven’t already) pushed the product beyond what Castle thought the public would do? Thus the possibility of a upper governor? (Which even Raz wonders the risk himself)

6s: 25.2v x 500a is 12.6 kW
8s: 33.6v x 500s is 16.8 kW

All his test did is say, your okay at 6s, maybe. At 8s, who here can say what is the ultimate limit other than the Castle engineers, who then can say absolutely do not run this high of a kv nor wattage higher than XYZ or else your on your own here, pay to play basically.

 

[rotauq]

A 4070CM TP can rated for 6S on 6S does pull more amps than a 8S rated on 8S
9000W = 25.2v x 357A (2700kv)
9000W = 33.6v x 270A (2200kv)
9000W = 21v x 428A (3200kv)

Higher voltage allows more watts only because the amps stay lower... And therefor has more room for load (to exceed the specs of the motor).

My xlx2 has seen over 500A on 8S. There is no other esc that can pull that off.
This is what Raz showed in his video too. Not by single 500A peak, but frequent high loads.

So far all burns I've seen where never on full load. Either directly on power on, or shortly after. The issue that seems to exist has nothing to do with the load it's exposed to, my best guess it's caused by smartsense

 

[LibertyMKiii]

I have pulled over 400a on 2s with a TP4050. I am certain it spiked over 500, but my MMX8s stops reading at 399.4 amps.
In general terms volts are easy on electronics and amps are harder on them. Ultimately the XLX2 issue is not related to any of that, its just a short into the metal base of the ESC. That wouldn't be related to the motor KV. One of my friends had an XLX2 go up in smoke while doing the throttle calibration on a 1700kv TP4070. That's why you buy direct and use the warranty as needed. It sounds like the Dec and later manufacture date ESCs are not having the issue. At least that is the current assumption.

 

[DoNoHarm]

I’m a long term KT subscriber and never understood those two videos. He doused the car in gas and set it on fire. How are tires gonna catch on fire when your ESC goes up! Come on. I’ve seen TONS of esc fires.

Quote from me^
I’m still wondering how the tops of the tires caught on fire though. That’s all I care about at the moment, once a valid reason comes out then yeah I believe the ESC actually blew up.

 

[jkflow]

He carried it out and heat rises plus velcro caught fire etc. No question in my mind that this was NOT staged. Also he mentioned that these were new tires probably with solvent still present. Pouring gas on it would look completely different.

 

[ARRMA King]

A 4070CM TP can rated for 6S on 6S does pull more amps than a 8S rated on 8S
9000W = 25.2v x 357A (2700kv)
9000W = 33.6v x 270A (2200kv)
9000W = 21v x 428A (3200kv)

Higher voltage allows more watts only because the amps stay lower... And therefor has more room for load (to exceed the specs of the motor).

My xlx2 has seen over 500A on 8S. There is no other esc that can pull that off.
This is what Raz showed in his video too. Not by single 500A peak, but frequent high loads.

So far all burns I've seen where never on full load. Either directly on power on, or shortly after. The issue that seems to exist has nothing to do with the load it's exposed to, my best guess it's caused by smartsense

Again, your assuming staying 'within' the suggested "wattage" by flexing the KV. In that case yes amperage will go down. But who here follows rules when going for Max Power and stress testing an ESC?

In practicality people that push these units, eg Speed runners, will push as high as the voltage/amps/watts they will achieve, on the SAME KV motor.

I've done it myself running a 3660 4300kv and a F540 3000kv on... 8s config. Did it work? Yes. Was it powerful? Yes. Did I blow em, one because I did 10 consecutive passes w/o cool down. Did the amps go up with each add'l lipo cell... YES!

Thus the point I will trying to illustrate had Raz swapped out the battery for an 8s voltage ON THE SAME MOTOR, resulting AMPS will naturally flow UPWARDS. He trying to say '6s' will pull more amps vs 8s is not right depending on 'details of config'.

This is all part of the achiving maximal power gains that is probably pushing these ESC's to their thresholds.

 

[rotauq]

Again, your assuming staying 'within' the suggested "wattage" by flexing the KV. In that case yes amperage will go down. But who here follows rules when going for Max Power and stress testing an ESC?

In practicality people that push these units, eg Speed runners, will push as high as the voltage/amps/watts they will achieve, on the SAME KV motor.

I've done it myself running a 3660 4300kv and a F540 3000kv on... 8s config. Did it work? Yes. Was it powerful? Yes. Did I blow em, one because I did 10 consecutive passes w/o cool down. Did the amps go up with each add'l lipo cell... YES!

Thus the point I will trying to illustrate had Raz swapped out the battery for an 8s voltage ON THE SAME MOTOR, resulting AMPS will naturally flow UPWARDS. He trying to say '6s' will pull more amps vs 8s is not right depending on 'details of config'.

This is all part of the achiving maximal power gains that is probably pushing these ESC's to their thresholds.

I put nitro's in my little Toyota, did it go faster Yes, did i blew it up, Yes...
Obviously everyone smiles when your 20$ motor on double voltage water-cooled and all, reaches 100+mph. It will never get up to 203mph that way.

Stress testing is not about doing stupid things. Definitely not calling you stupid btw. Did I do the same, Yes. I have have a graveyard of burned motor's and esc's in all sizes with which i tried every stupid thing imaginable. What did i learn out of it? Motors become less efficient when overvolted. There is more to a motor than just kv. It's internal wiring makes it efficient on a specified voltage (which does have some tolerance true, but not much) What makes them look more powerful is the kv working as an electronic gearbox. This off spec 'fake gearing' creates the extra amp draw. Higher voltage really lowers the ampdraw, but will be ruined by worsened efficiency asking more amps to create heat (which is also power)

I have no doubt, a geared up motor on (near) spec voltage will give more speed than overvolting the motor to the same (physical+electronic) transmission.

The only message Raz wanted to spread is that with a castle esc you can actually go for max power and won't be capped on Amps or rpm like other brands do. Arguing about the voltage used during his stress testing and making assumptions about every single word he says, is like he says 'being a keyboard warrior'.

 

[ARRMA King]

Look we’re just trying to clarify his statement that “6s pulls more amps” when the esc obviously is spec’d to go up to 8s, which can allow more to be drawn. That’s it.

And my sentiments for ‘clarification’ is not alone as seen by the YouTube comments.

this isn’t about the esc failure anymore but trying to clarify information, esp if somebody is viewed as a guru to the hobby, the least you can do is not spread wrong half statements.

And as you’ve just alluded too, disregarding efficiency... “more amps will be drawn/consumed/generate excess waste heat”. That was exactly point being made of going higher up in voltage = more amps! Baring the motor kv, gearing & esc profile is not changed.

 

[rotauq]

Look we’re just trying to clarify his statement that “6s pulls more amps” when the esc obviously is spec’d to go up to 8s, which can allow more to be drawn. That’s it.

And my sentiments for ‘clarification’ is not alone as seen by the YouTube comments.

this isn’t about the esc failure anymore but trying to clarify information, esp if somebody is viewed as a guru to the hobby, the least you can do is not spread wrong half statements.

And as you’ve just alluded too, disregarding efficiency... “more amps will be drawn/consumed/generate excess waste heat”. That was exactly point being made of going higher up in voltage = more amps! Baring the motor kv, gearing & esc profile is not changed.

Raz quickly reacted to this hot topic and couldn't plan out a perfect test scenario. Timing was more relevant than quality.
He doesn't (yet) have endless amounts of video's where he can refer to technical details about the actual workings of all electronics and how they work as a whole. An esc enables a motor to get the power it wants to pull, it does not push. Voltage is not that relevant, amps are. And he certainly is right about 6s pulling more amps (for the same work). If he did the same test with a 8S motor on 8S it would have pulled less amps and people would be complaining about that. He would have needed an even bigger prop to get high amps on 8S and those are not easy to come by.

Overvolting a motor to create more amps would have made him less of a guru. Nobody benefits from wasted amps. Pulling 20kW to get a rc car up to 120mph is not an achievement.

Speaking of true guru's, a similar story is happening in the drone world. iFlight is dealing with burning esc's. Given drone electronics offer more software variables to play with and people are generally better educated on their electronics(thanks to people like Bardwell), he made a tutorial how to prevent it from burning:

 

[maxxximatoze]

One more

 

[DaddyPig]

Service advisory is out...

Castle Creations

 

[Lukas412]

Service advisory is out...

Castle Creations

Finally, thank you Castle!

 

[jkflow]

Quick detail but link is above:

"At this time, Castle is advising to immediately discontinue use of Delta wound motors and any motors that are 2000Kv or higher. "

Firmware update in the works

 

[L3phturn]

What motor manufacturers use delta windings? TP I presume.

Good job Castle. I know everyone wants them to react instantly but they first had to get enough data to find out what is actually going wrong and figure out exactly which motors and which ESCs were causing issues and how to prevent and fix it.

 

[jkflow]

TP has some and you would really have to look at your motor spec. These are higher power.

At least it's a start, seen a video with a castle 1100kV doing the same though. That one is sold as a combo. This isn't the end of it is my guess.
Granted, that could be an isolated incident but I seriously doubt it. There are other factors in play as well.

 

[Mr.Duke]

https://www.arrmaforum.com/threads/...8s-service-advisory-statement-released.32236/

 

[IrieWheeler]

"The motor's a little hot... The ESC's a little hot too..."

The guy stomping on his car like a burning paper scrap to put the fire out is the best part.

RC comedy FTW, nice job Castle!

 

[Lukas412]

At least it's a start, seen a video with a castle 1100kV doing the same though. That one is sold as a combo. This isn't the end of it is my guess.
Granted, that could be an isolated incident but I seriously doubt it. There are other factors in play as well.

Remember there are two advisories, the motor advisory and the manufacturing and assembly advisory, I'm guessing the 1100k falls under the latter.

 

[jkflow]

Remember there are two advisories, the motor advisory and the manufacturing and assembly advisory, I'm guessing the 1100k falls under the latter.

Doesn't seem like either applies. #1 is for D wired motors and #2 would be an immediate fail on first power up.

There is still more to the story but seems like they are on the ball and this won't be an easy investigation.

 

[Yas]

According to Joe Gerding's channel, his XLX2 popped when batteries were (left...?) plugged in but the switch was off