Putting out Li-Po fires with Washing Up Liquid / Dish Soap??!!!

[Johnny b]

I don't know man??? The theory just doesn't work IMHO. . The way the chemistry of a lipo works and all... Thermal runaway and all. Much also depends on how fully charged the lipo is to begin with. IMHO.
Need to first try that myself to believe it.
Could just be an RC Urban Myth??? Like the many out there.
I have 5 lipos here sitting in my Barby to recycle. I will ignite/puncture one to see for myself.
Just I am not a believer....

Go for it! Put 5 lipos under barbies butt and ignite them. See if Ken can save her.

 

[Audi X-Maxx]

I was under the impression once a lipo started cooking cutting off the oxygen supply wouldn't stop it. But I would love to know if this works.

Yes & No. I think this idea got misunderstood based on the concept of saponification. Lipo batteries chemistry is derived from the similar process of soap making. It appears that the hope for using liquid dish soap to extinguish a fire was based on a favorable spontaneous reaction where any reactive Li+ alkali would displace Na+ in the dish soap to form toxic bubbles instead (?). If you have ever witnessed someone successfully quelching an alkali combustion event using liquid dish soap, then it’s the same principle as smothering a flame with chalk, graphite or dirt, which effectively attenuates the repeated ignition of the reactive Li+. The success rate of using liquid dish soap is largely dependent on the size of the combustion event and its particular cell composition. The best method for extinguishing an alkali fire is a type F extinguisher followed by an ABCD extinguisher. The type F (type ABF or AF) uses the weakly bound salts to create an inert Li+ salt. They also are better for a Lipo fire because they are more effective in fires where the temperatures continue to increase from the repeated exothermic reactions.

There are actually several different by products of a Lipo in flames, all depending on the particular composition of that manufacturers cell and its salts. Many of them are toxic gas.

 

[Dan B.]

Yes & No. I think this idea got misunderstood based on the concept of saponification. Lipo batteries chemistry is derived from the similar process of soap making. It appears that the hope for using liquid dish soap to extinguish a fire was based on a favorable spontaneous reaction where any reactive Li+ alkali would displace Na+ in the dish soap to form toxic bubbles instead (?). If you have ever witnessed someone successfully quelching an alkali combustion event using liquid dish soap, then it’s the same principle as smothering a flame with chalk, graphite or dirt, which effectively attenuates the repeated ignition of the reactive Li+. The success rate of using liquid dish soap is largely dependent on the size of the combustion event and its particular cell composition. The best method for extinguishing an alkali fire is a type F extinguisher followed by an ABCD extinguisher. The type F (type ABF or AF) uses the weakly bound salts to create an inert Li+ salt. They also are better for a Lipo fire because they are more effective in fires where the temperatures continue to increase from the repeated exothermic reactions.

There are actually several different by products of a Lipo in flames, all depending on the particular composition of that manufacturers cell and its salts. Many of them are toxic gas.

Are you friends with @Diem Turner ? If not, y’all should get together and go bowling some time.
So…dish soap could work to quell this reaction, and could/should be given a shot?
Thanks for this fantastic, technical response.
Also, this is marketed for lithium fires, but does carry Type F designation.
“DESIGNED TO WORK ON ALL FIRE CLASSES THROUGH A, B, C, D, K, GASEOUS AND LITHIUM BATTERIES”
https://www.amazon.com/Firexo-Extin...d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9zZWFyY2hfdGhlbWF0aWM&psc=1

 

[Doom!]

Yes & No. I think this idea got misunderstood based on the concept of saponification. Lipo batteries chemistry is derived from the similar process of soap making. It appears that the hope for using liquid dish soap to extinguish a fire was based on a favorable spontaneous reaction where any reactive Li+ alkali would displace Na+ in the dish soap to form toxic bubbles instead (?). If you have ever witnessed someone successfully quelching an alkali combustion event using liquid dish soap, then it’s the same principle as smothering a flame with chalk, graphite or dirt, which effectively attenuates the repeated ignition of the reactive Li+. The success rate of using liquid dish soap is largely dependent on the size of the combustion event and its particular cell composition. The best method for extinguishing an alkali fire is a type F extinguisher followed by an ABCD extinguisher. The type F (type ABF or AF) uses the weakly bound salts to create an inert Li+ salt. They also are better for a Lipo fire because they are more effective in fires where the temperatures continue to increase from the repeated exothermic reactions.

There are actually several different by products of a Lipo in flames, all depending on the particular composition of that manufacturers cell and its salts. Many of them are toxic gas.

Thanks for clarifying that. Always good to learn something new.

 

[Audi X-Maxx]

Are you friends with @Diem Turner ? If not, y’all should get together and go bowling some time.
So…dish soap could work to quell this reaction, and could/should be given a shot?
Thanks for this fantastic, technical response.
Also, this is marketed for lithium fires, but does carry Type F designation.
“DESIGNED TO WORK ON ALL FIRE CLASSES THROUGH A, B, C, D, K, GASEOUS AND LITHIUM BATTERIES”
https://www.amazon.com/Firexo-Extinguisher-Multi-Purpose-Fires-Emergency-Equipment/dp/B0BZDR5VZM/ref=sxin_17_pa_sp_search_thematic_sspa?content-id=amzn1.sym.1c86ab1a-a73c-4131-85f1-15bd92ae152d:amzn1.sym.1c86ab1a-a73c-4131-85f1-15bd92ae152d&cv_ct_cx=class+f+fire+extinguisher&hvadid=509363996768&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9002992&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=10647233421330659775&hvtargid=kwd-304491547093&hydadcr=22879_9902829&keywords=class+f+fire+extinguisher&pd_rd_i=B0BZDR5VZM&pd_rd_r=f1486f36-aeb7-4822-854c-dc4fd6f609d2&pd_rd_w=a6ie9&pd_rd_wg=4Zvbc&pf_rd_p=1c86ab1a-a73c-4131-85f1-15bd92ae152d&pf_rd_r=DJJT6DW44A8RBZY5Q8B7&qid=1692369798&sbo=RZvfv//HxDF+O5021pAnSA==&sr=1-2-364cf978-ce2a-480a-9bb0-bdb96faa0f61-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9zZWFyY2hfdGhlbWF0aWM&psc=1

Hahaha! No, the name does not ring a bell, but I’ll scroll through the thread to see his response. And cool, it’s nice to see Fire Extinguishers are now including Lithium based fires. And for the purpose of the response, I would say no, using liquid dishwashing soap is not an ideal extinguisher, it just maybe happened to work in a particular situation. The person that had success with liquid dishwashing soap would’ve had the same result using hand lotion. It just snuffed out the Oxygen near the flame.

 

[Dan B.]

Hahaha! No, the name does not ring a bell, but I’ll scroll through the thread to see his response. And cool, it’s nice to see Fire Extinguishers are now including Lithium based fires. And for the purpose of the response, I would say no, using liquid dishwashing soap is not an ideal extinguisher, it just maybe happened to work in a particular situation. The person that had success with liquid dishwashing soap would’ve had the same result using hand lotion. It just snuffed out the Oxygen near the flame.

Well then, I guess I’ll be buying some very specific fire extinguishers and saving my Dawn dish detergent for all of those oil soaked ducks roaming around my property.

 

[Xpress..]

Yes & No. I think this idea got misunderstood based on the concept of saponification. Lipo batteries chemistry is derived from the similar process of soap making. It appears that the hope for using liquid dish soap to extinguish a fire was based on a favorable spontaneous reaction where any reactive Li+ alkali would displace Na+ in the dish soap to form toxic bubbles instead (?). If you have ever witnessed someone successfully quelching an alkali combustion event using liquid dish soap, then it’s the same principle as smothering a flame with chalk, graphite or dirt, which effectively attenuates the repeated ignition of the reactive Li+. The success rate of using liquid dish soap is largely dependent on the size of the combustion event and its particular cell composition. The best method for extinguishing an alkali fire is a type F extinguisher followed by an ABCD extinguisher. The type F (type ABF or AF) uses the weakly bound salts to create an inert Li+ salt. They also are better for a Lipo fire because they are more effective in fires where the temperatures continue to increase from the repeated exothermic reactions.

There are actually several different by products of a Lipo in flames, all depending on the particular composition of that manufacturers cell and its salts. Many of them are toxic gas.

The only byproduct we care about is FIRE!!

 

[Jerold]

When I saw the post, I did a (very) little research and according people (claiming to be actual fire scientists) say it does work. However, they all say it releases toxic fumes, CO and CO2. I found several posts, they all say the same thing, this one is a bit more concise.
https://fireproofdepot.com/dish-soap-flammable/

As for the toxic CO/CO2, it's probably less harmful than the Lithium battery that's burning. We breath it all the time... We even emit CO2 when we breath. Crap, there goes my eco-freindly carbon neutrality.

They did a professional version in Japan. They didn't tell us the formula but it is soap based.

He should have waited a bit longer for the flames to shoot out..

But this is a Very interesting method of extinguishing Lipos!

Time to swing my Costco for their 10 gallon twin pack of dish soap...

Will need to separate it out to smaller portions and keep some in our 1:1 cars.

10 Gal twin pack. OMG how many LiPo fires do YOU have? We should hang out.

I'm wondering if a 50/50 mixture in water would be good? Put some in a squirt gun and keep it handy by the charging station? Always good to have more knowledge about stuff. In a pinch, I'd rather know that dish soap can at least "calm" a runaway lipo.

Based on the lipo extinguisher product i posted a while back, they said it was "non-toxic" and "non-corrosive". Makes me wonder if they just used dish soap in it all along...

You will need more volume than a squirt gun. Maybe and industrial grade chemical sprayer "might" work, but I even have some doubts with that.

But you'd better off looking for a used water rig. You fill it with water (or what ever) and pressurize it with your air compressor. You can find them on Craig's list, but make sure they are not rusted or damaged. Or make your own from PVC.

 

[Audi X-Maxx]

When I saw the post, I did a (very) little research and according people (claiming to be actual fire scientists) say it does work. However, they all say it releases toxic fumes, CO and CO2. I found several posts, they all say the same thing, this one is a bit more concise.
https://fireproofdepot.com/dish-soap-flammable/

As for the toxic CO/CO2, it's probably less harmful than the Lithium battery that's burning. We breath it all the time... We even emit CO2 when we breath. Crap, there goes my eco-freindly carbon neutrality.

They did a professional version in Japan. They didn't tell us the formula but it is soap based.

10 Gal twin pack. OMG how many LiPo fires do YOU have? We should hang out.


You will need more volume than a squirt gun. Maybe and industrial grade chemical sprayer "might" work, but I even have some doubts with that.

But you'd better off looking for a used water rig. You fill it with water (or what ever) and pressurize it with your air compressor. You can find them on Craig's list, but make sure they are not rusted or damaged. Or make your own from PVC.

Or just spend $20 on an ABC Extinguisher (if F-type is too much) as it’s better than trying to experiment with dish soap and burning down your home/garage/work space, etc…

 

[Jerold]

Or just spend $20 on an ABC Extinguisher (if F-type is too much) as it’s better than trying to experiment with dish soap and burning down your home/garage/work space, etc…

I absolutely agree! But the thread was about using dish soap.

I think the point is it can be done and it's less messy than ABC. As for expense it is less expensive, but how much is your house worth?

 

[Audi X-Maxx]

I absolutely agree! But the thread was about using dish soap.

I think the point is it can be done and it's less messy than ABC. As for expense it is less expensive, but how much is your house worth?

Right?! Lol!

And good call, you’re right, you addressed the question but never stated using dish liquid is a good idea. Apologies!

 

[Jerold]

Right?! Lol!

And good call, you’re right, you addressed the question but never stated using dish liquid is a good idea. Apologies!

No worries. I had the same thought as you and started with the ABC solution but realized I was off track. The deleted most of my original response.

 

[jkflow]

I can already see people proposing 'put it in a plastic bag and store it right above the lipo, it will melt and smother it'. I hope those people stay on facebook

 

[Jerold]

I can already see people proposing 'put it in a plastic bag and store it right above the lipo, it will melt and smother it'. I hope those people stay on facebook

That will be a fun video!

 

[Moirae]

I can already see people proposing 'put it in a plastic bag and store it right above the lipo, it will melt and smother it'. I hope those people stay on facebook

That post was already on the original reddit thread days ago

 

[Metaalhoofd]

Are you friends with @Diem Turner ? If not, y’all should get together and go bowling some time.
So…dish soap could work to quell this reaction, and could/should be given a shot?
Thanks for this fantastic, technical response.
Also, this is marketed for lithium fires, but does carry Type F designation.
“DESIGNED TO WORK ON ALL FIRE CLASSES THROUGH A, B, C, D, K, GASEOUS AND LITHIUM BATTERIES”
https://www.amazon.com/Firexo-Extinguisher-Multi-Purpose-Fires-Emergency-Equipment/dp/B0BZDR5VZM/ref=sxin_17_pa_sp_search_thematic_sspa?content-id=amzn1.sym.1c86ab1a-a73c-4131-85f1-15bd92ae152d:amzn1.sym.1c86ab1a-a73c-4131-85f1-15bd92ae152d&cv_ct_cx=class+f+fire+extinguisher&hvadid=509363996768&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9002992&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=10647233421330659775&hvtargid=kwd-304491547093&hydadcr=22879_9902829&keywords=class+f+fire+extinguisher&pd_rd_i=B0BZDR5VZM&pd_rd_r=f1486f36-aeb7-4822-854c-dc4fd6f609d2&pd_rd_w=a6ie9&pd_rd_wg=4Zvbc&pf_rd_p=1c86ab1a-a73c-4131-85f1-15bd92ae152d&pf_rd_r=DJJT6DW44A8RBZY5Q8B7&qid=1692369798&sbo=RZvfv//HxDF+O5021pAnSA==&sr=1-2-364cf978-ce2a-480a-9bb0-bdb96faa0f61-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9zZWFyY2hfdGhlbWF0aWM&psc=1

I kinda have my doubts about that brand. Either they have a cheap miracle product or they lie. In general people say that different extinguishers have different uses, because there is no product that works on everything.
But Firexo claims they do have an one size fits all solution. I found one vid of them extinguishing a lithium ion fire with it, but it's not a chain reaction fire, but they set lithium ion batteries a flame with petrol and I wonder whether we just see the petrol and the packaging burning before they extinguish it or that the contents started burning as well.

Anyone care to try out that product on a Lipo?

 

[SrC]

Well then, I guess I’ll be buying some very specific fire extinguishers and saving my Dawn dish detergent for all of those oil soaked ducks roaming around my property.

I know that a No2 ( Nitrogen) fire extinguisher starves/displaces the combustion of any oxygen. Yet Lithium fires are self sustaining, until the materials have been exhausted during the complete ignition of Lipo materials. Only stops when it's been exhausted. Thermal runaway is hard to control.
You only may be able to contain it to some extent. I doubt it can be extinguished completely, otherwise.

 

[SrC]

Depending on the lipo's mass and number of cells, a themal runaway can last several minutes. Especially if fully charged. If it can safely burn out where it is placed without combusting any other flammable materials near it, just let it burn out. It will stop on its own. Enjoy the fireworks, keeping anyone from getting closer than 15 feet.
At the tale end when the flames subside, it usually can be extinguished, if you want to try.
I find that if you try to extinguish when it's just ablaze, you are just spreading the flames outward, not putting them out.


https://www.arrmaforum.com/threads/...rick-never-let-your-guard-down-or-else.57989/

 

[King blitz]

I'ma head on over to dollar tree and buy me a case of dish liquid

 

[Dan B.]

I'ma head on over to dollar tree and buy me a case of dish liquid

Don’t get the generic crap they sell there. It has to be the OG Dawn, and must be oily duck approved.
I’m currently working on an experiment to test this hypothesis which involves an oily duck zipped up in a LiPo bag with an exploding battery while both are thoroughly doused with Dawn dish detergent.
Film at 11:00.