Another Boeing airplane Malfunction // Door Plug flew off during flight

[Jerold]

I can tell you what's going on over there at Boeing...DEI. Or as I like to call it, DIE. Diversity, Inclusion & Equity. Read this. If this doesn't send chills down your spine, you probably no longer have a pulse.
https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2022-04-18-Boeing-CEO-Message-on-Equity,-Diversity-Inclusion-Report

Boeing is doing an awful lot of outsourcing. That particular panel that blew off the plane mid flight could be traced back to a company called Spirit Aerospace. Here...this is one of the contractors that is putting together planes for Boeing.
https://www.spiritaero.com/company/...usion/international-women-in-engineering-day/
View attachment 342814

But it's not just Boeing. A couple of years ago, United Airlines set a goal that 50% of their hires for pilots are to be women or people of color (if memory serves, they're actually coming in above that target at 70-80%). They are literally promoting flight attendants to pilot training (in at least once case they rehired a flight attendant that had been fired with the explicit notification that this person is never to return to United and put her into the pilot training program).

Let that sink in for a moment. No seriously. Let that marinate for a minute or two.

I honestly could not care less about the color of my pilots skin. It's the furthest thing from my mind. The only thing I care about, is that airline companies are hiring the best and most highly qualified pilots with the most amount of flight hours that they can get their hands on. Full stop. No other factors should be considered. EVER.

Presently, United is always pairing up their diversity hires with veteran pilots so that at least one person in the cockpit knows what they're doing and how to stay calm in case of emergency. But how many years do you think they have until the enough veterans have aged out of the system and the number of DIE hires make up a majority of the pilots they have on staff and the chances of having two midwits at the helm of the plane that humans are sitting in makes it all but a certainty? Flying in commercial aircraft either already is or will very soon be, no different from playing Russian roulette. And no, I'm not being hyperbolic.

If you hire on any criteria other than competency, you WILL get less competency. Probability? 100%.

I totally agree DIE is not good for anyone, it just reminds and reinforces the differences between people and cultures. In fact if there was no racism, sexism, <fill in the blank>ism there would be no need for DIE. I see programs that actually create more problems so they can get more funding, build their empire and get paid. It's much worse in academia and government. Also keep in mind that gender, color, whatever aside there are always people that don't perform.

In no way am I saying that there still aren't messed up people, companies and practices but they aren't as prevalent as the DIE people claim. There was a time when there was no possible way for a women or person of color to ascend the food chain.

However, this is not an engineering problem. The design calls out the materials and procedures to attach the door. The problem is the manufacturer didn't follow the procedure and/or use the correct materials. Which means it's most likely a low level worker that didn't follow directions. There are so many things that could have caused it. Union timers - the whistle blows and you put down what you are doing and go on lunch. Covid - Way too many people were absent and the people working were short handed, but still had schedules to fill. Stupidity - Self explanatory. Improper training, bad documents, they meant to go back to that... the list goes on for ever.

Lets hope they get it fixed and back in the air safely.

 

[Dan B.]

The hiring practices of a STEM organization should really have no bearing on race, gender, identity, etc. The training process is what’s important. And critical. If they look at their current employee demographics and say, “yo, we only employ 4% of people of color” then yes, that’s a problem. Highly qualified people of color, for example, have a far more limited history of actually being hired in these jobs, and that needs to change. If someone is qualified, their personal/racial/identity affiliations should have zero bearing. Boeing could train an intelligent, qualified individual to do their job well even if they were purple in color with double-D boobs, indistinguishable ethnicity, tattoos and multiple piercings, and a giant c*ck hiding under their miniskirt.
We can’t make this about DEI, we need to hold Boeing accountable for their training and oversight.

 

[Jerold]

The hiring practices of a STEM organization should really have no bearing on race, gender, identity, etc. The training process is what’s important. And critical. If they look at their current employee demographics and say, “yo, we only employ 4% of people of color” then yes, that’s a problem. Highly qualified people of color, for example, have a far more limited history of actually being hired in these jobs, and that needs to change. If someone is qualified, their personal/racial/identity affiliations should have zero bearing. Boeing could train an intelligent, qualified individual to do their job well even if they were purple in color with double-D boobs, indistinguishable ethnicity, tattoos and multiple piercings, and a giant c*ck hiding under their miniskirt.
We can’t make this about DEI, we need to hold Boeing accountable for their training and oversight.
Come on, guys…

I think that was the point and I totally agree. What equipment is under the hood and what they do at home has nothing to do with their job. It should not be part of their consideration for the job, which is exactly backwards from the DIE narrative. DIE people have a bell curve to fill.

In Cali and I will say it's a very diverse ecosystem of people from all over the world and all walks of life. I could care less what they do on their own time. If I did I wouldn't have any colleges. However, when they are assigned a job to do, they better dang well do it. If they can't they need to ask for help.

The problem is there are a lot of people that don't take accountability for their work.

 

[Diem Turner]

I totally agree DIE is not good for anyone, it just reminds and reinforces the differences between people and cultures. In fact if there was no racism, sexism, <fill in the blank>ism there would be no need for DIE. I see programs that actually create more problems so they can get more funding, build their empire and get paid. It's much worse in academia and government. Also keep in mind that gender, color, whatever aside there are always people that don't perform.

In no way am I saying that there still aren't messed up people, companies and practices but they aren't as prevalent as the DIE people claim. There was a time when there was no possible way for a women or person of color to ascend the food chain.

However, this is not an engineering problem. The design calls out the materials and procedures to attach the door. The problem is the manufacturer didn't follow the procedure and/or use the correct materials. Which means it's most likely a low level worker that didn't follow directions. There are so many things that could have caused it. Union timers - the whistle blows and you put down what you are doing and go on lunch. Covid - Way too many people were absent and the people working were short handed, but still had schedules to fill. Stupidity - Self explanatory. Improper training, bad documents, they meant to go back to that... the list goes on for ever.

Lets hope they get it fixed and back in the air safely.

Agree with some parts, disagree on others.

I agree that, at its core, DIE is bad for everyone because it's a societal cancer (though one could argue that it's good for those that get artificially promoted into positions they neither deserve nor possess the requisite capabilities that would justify the promotion).

The next point, to my mind is backwards. Racism and sexism have become so rare that programs like DIE initiatives are needed to create and promote actual racism as the supply of racism/sexism cannot even come close to meeting their demand for for ubiquitous and pervasive racism everywhere they look. That's why their answer to any disparity in outcome between two groups is always racism/sexism. It's a Pavlovian, knee-jerk response at this point. When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Academia is the origin point of this parasitic infection of the mind and it has made its way into the top echelons of gov't, the military and virtually all other institutions. We're in agreement there.

And this definitely isn't an engineering problem. Just to be clear, I agree that this was the result of poor workmanship and I didn't intend to imply anything other than that, if that's the impression that you got. To further drive the point home, Boeing is outsourcing the physical construction of parts of their planes to companies where the torque wrenches in the tech's tool chest hasn't been calibrated recently and are running out of spec.

The problem, to my mind, isn't the low level worker not following directions. The problem is HR and management that made intentional and active changes to their hiring standards that allowed a person who doesn't treat their job with the needed sense of precision and responsibility to even get hired for such a position. This is a failure of leadership that is resulting in the hiring of sub-standard personnel. As I had said, if in crucial roles such as these you are hiring based on anything other than competency, you will get less competency as a direct result. The airline industry is about as bad of a choice where one might apply these alternate, sub-standard practices as someone could make. People will die in the coming years as a direct result of these changes in hiring standards in practice. It's not a question of if but when.

 

[Diem Turner]

The hiring practices of a STEM organization should really have no bearing on race, gender, identity, etc. The training process is what’s important. And critical. If they look at their current employee demographics and say, “yo, we only employ 4% of people of color” then yes, that’s a problem. Highly qualified people of color, for example, have a far more limited history of actually being hired in these jobs, and that needs to change. If someone is qualified, their personal/racial/identity affiliations should have zero bearing. Boeing could train an intelligent, qualified individual to do their job well even if they were purple in color with double-D boobs, indistinguishable ethnicity, tattoos and multiple piercings, and a giant c*ck hiding under their miniskirt.
We can’t make this about DEI, we need to hold Boeing accountable for their training and oversight.
Come on, guys…

I can and I will. I'm not the one that made this about DIE. The CEO of Boeing did that. I'm just pointing it out. DIE hiring practices are going to cost people their lives. I disagree with the practice in its entirety because this daft idea that you can somehow combat and defeat perceived racism and/or discrimination with more racism and discrimination is not just wrong, it's fractally wrong and I reject its framework and premise wholesale.

I really don't care what percentage of what group make up what part of a crew that builds planes. I could not care less about hiring quotas. I don't care if it's 4%, 50%, 100% or 0% "people of color" so long as they were selected based purely on merit, performance and competency (especially competency). This is an area where nothing else can or should matter and to settle for anything less than that will have dire consequences.

 

[Dan B.]

I can and I will. I'm not the one that made this about DIE. The CEO of Boeing did that. I'm just pointing it out. DIE hiring practices are going to cost people their lives. I disagree with the practice in its entirety because this daft idea that you can somehow combat and defeat perceived racism and/or discrimination with more racism and discrimination is not just wrong, it's fractally wrong and I reject its framework and premise wholesale.

I really don't care what percentage of what group make up what part of a crew that builds planes. I could not care less about hiring quotas. I don't care if it's 4%, 50%, 100% or 0% "people of color" so long as they were selected based purely on merit, performance and competency (especially competency). This is an area where nothing else can or should matter and to settle for anything less than that will have dire consequences.

I’m going to partially disagree.
I do not totally disagree about your stance on these mandated programs, and I do completely understand your argument about the premise being inherently “racist” if an organization is forced to comply with a federally mandated program that favors the hiring of one race over another. It’s the reasons behind their implementation that matter and our overtly and endemic racist practices over the course of the last couple of hundred years here in good old ‘Murica, and that’s what made something necessary. If these programs didn’t exist a black man with a PhD in quantum physics could stand less of a chance of being hired than a caucasion with a masters degree. That’s historical fact, can’t be disputed, and the numbers go back to the origin dates of our infant, racist nation.
Also, when people say that those programs are inherently “racist” by their very definition, then no, you are not wrong. By definition. But when people vocally oppose these kinds of programs (going back even before Affirmative Action) I take a bit of offense, even if I don’t totally agree with all of a programs mandates, or the very obvious observation that they’re not fair to equally qualified people applying for job or trying to get into a university. That said, I still don’t think any white guy or gal in America has the right to call these programs racist yet. Because they can’t pretend to understand the obstacles that any person of color has, and continues to face today in this country. From Boeing to the local mom and pop business down the street you can still hear people say “I ain’t going to hire that freak” etc., etc.
Any Caucasian in the United States has a long way to go before they have the luxury of complaining about being discriminated against, IMO. Or in using the word “racist” when they feel it applies to them. A white person has no real understanding of racism because their family members weren’t being strung up in trees due to the color of their skin, and that was still happening in a shockingly recent period.
I’ve never met anyone on this forum in person, but I’m assuming you’re a white dude. And white dudes everywhere might take a bit of solace knowing that today, our right wing racist Supreme Court is striking down these programs as new cases arrive on their docket, so there’s that. There is hope after all for all of the suppressed and discriminated against white people everywhere.
I fully understand the problems with WOKE movements and the frustration and even anger that people have with them. Much of it is ridiculous and way over the top, and I get that. But it’s very unfortunate that in 2024 we still need these kinds of programs and legislation to overcome the inherently endemic racist and exclusionary hiring practices that have and continue to be subscribed to, and also against racism in its purest form.
Miles Davis went to Paris.

 

[Diem Turner]

I’m going to partially disagree.
I do not totally disagree about your stance on these mandated programs, and I do completely understand your argument about the premise being inherently “racist” if an organization is forced to comply with a federally mandated program that favors the hiring of one race over another. It’s the reasons behind their implementation that matter and our overtly and endemic racist practices over the course of the last couple of hundred years here in good old ‘Murica, and that’s what made something necessary. If these programs didn’t exist a black man with a PhD in quantum physics could stand less of a chance of being hired than a caucasion with a masters degree. That’s historical fact, can’t be disputed, and the numbers go back to the origin dates of our infant, racist nation.
Also, when people say that those programs are inherently “racist” by their very definition, then no, you are not wrong. By definition. But when people vocally oppose these kinds of programs (going back even before Affirmative Action) I take a bit of offense, even if I don’t totally agree with all of a programs mandates, or the very obvious observation that they’re not fair to equally qualified people applying for job or trying to get into a university. That said, I still don’t think any white guy or gal in America has the right to call these programs racist yet. Because they can’t pretend to understand the obstacles that any person of color has, and continues to face today in this country. From Boeing to the local mom and pop business down the street you can still hear people say “I ain’t going to hire that freak” etc., etc.
Any Caucasian in the United States has a long way to go before they have the luxury of complaining about being discriminated against, IMO. Or in using the word “racist” when they feel it applies to them. A white person has no real understanding of racism because their family members weren’t being strung up in trees due to the color of their skin, and that was still happening in a shockingly recent period.
I’ve never met anyone on this forum in person, but I’m assuming you’re a white dude. And white dudes everywhere might take a bit of solace knowing that today, our right wing racist Supreme Court is striking down these programs as new cases arrive on their docket, so there’s that. There is hope after all for all of the suppressed and discriminated against white people everywhere.
I fully understand the problems with WOKE movements and the frustration and even anger that people have with them. Much of it is ridiculous and way over the top, and I get that. But it’s very unfortunate that in 2024 we still need these kinds of programs and legislation to overcome the inherently endemic racist and exclusionary hiring practices that have and continue to be subscribed to, and also against racism in its purest form.
Miles Davis went to Paris.

I have never, not even once, heard anyone say, "I'm not going to hire that freak" or anything even remotely equating to it. Ever. I understand that this is just my anecdotal experience and I'm not ruling out the possibility or even the probability that someone has said or will say that somewhere at some point. But I am going to draw the conclusion that this is exceedingly rare based on my own sampling of human behavior over the course of my life.

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, white people have to just shut up and accept being discriminated against when they're being discriminated against because you don't grant them this luxury due to historical injustices and I think that's a nonsensical position to take. If someone is being discriminated against, they have the right to complain about it, irrespective of the color of their skin (unless the argument is that this one particular group can't because of the color of their skin). So at what point do you think they will have earned that luxury? What needs to happen before they're "allowed" to complain? Or will that luxury never be granted because reasons?

In raw numbers, more white people were lynched than black people (and please don't say that's because there are more white people in America because the original argument was that black people were being strung up in trees due to the color of their skin) so do you think it's possible that people were being lynched for something other than the color of their skin? Is it possible that they were lynched for something they were accused of having done? I'm not arguing in favor of vigilantism because I don't agree with the concept on principle. But if we're going to discuss the injustice of the practice, we would need to examine the reasons the people engaged in the activity for...but I'm pretty sure that there weren't many cases of someone yelling "That person has dark skin, let's hang him!".

So the SCOTUS is racist now. I have yet to see one instance or ruling that would validate this perspective but if that's what you want to believe, Ok. But maybe you have an example you can show me that would make the case that the Supreme Court is racist other than just the mere assertion based on which political party nominated which number of justices. You can mock discriminated white people everywhere and roll your eyes all you like, but I don't think it's a particularly good look to say "Shut up whitey!". At least not if your position that discrimination in general and, more specifically, discrimination based on skin color is bad. But, maybe I'm wrong and just have to accept that what's good for the goose, is good for the gander.

If the goal is to eliminate racism and discrimination, I think that it is not only hypocritical but just a dumb idea that the answer is more racism and discrimination. Interestingly, that seems to be the mechanism by which any of these programs are trying to change the numbers. This is the answer to the call of, "Do something! Anything!". It is short sighted and myopic and only engenders more animosity.

 

[Jerold]

I'm out, but certainly will enjoy the conversation.

 

[speeding_Infraction]

I'm out, but certainly will enjoy the conversation.

Likewise... Can I share your popcorn?

 

[Dan B.]

I have never, not even once, heard anyone say, "I'm not going to hire that freak" or anything even remotely equating to it. Ever. I understand that this is just my anecdotal experience and I'm not ruling out the possibility or even the probability that someone has said or will say that somewhere at some point. But I am going to draw the conclusion that this is exceedingly rare based on my own sampling of human behavior over the course of my life.

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, white people have to just shut up and accept being discriminated against when they're being discriminated against because you don't grant them this luxury due to historical injustices and I think that's a nonsensical position to take. If someone is being discriminated against, they have the right to complain about it, irrespective of the color of their skin (unless the argument is that this one particular group can't because of the color of their skin). So at what point do you think they will have earned that luxury? What needs to happen before they're "allowed" to complain? Or will that luxury never be granted because reasons?

In raw numbers, more white people were lynched than black people (and please don't say that's because there are more white people in America because the original argument was that black people were being strung up in trees due to the color of their skin) so do you think it's possible that people were being lynched for something other than the color of their skin? Is it possible that they were lynched for something they were accused of having done? I'm not arguing in favor of vigilantism because I don't agree with the concept on principle. But if we're going to discuss the injustice of the practice, we would need to examine the reasons the people engaged in the activity for...but I'm pretty sure that there weren't many cases of someone yelling "That person has dark skin, let's hang him!".

So the SCOTUS is racist now. I have yet to see one instance or ruling that would validate this perspective but if that's what you want to believe, Ok. But maybe you have an example you can show me that would make the case that the Supreme Court is racist other than just the mere assertion based on which political party nominated which number of justices. You can mock discriminated white people everywhere and roll your eyes all you like, but I don't think it's a particularly good look to say "Shut up whitey!". At least not if your position that discrimination in general and, more specifically, discrimination based on skin color is bad. But, maybe I'm wrong and just have to accept that what's good for the goose, is good for the gander.

If the goal is to eliminate racism and discrimination, I think that it is not only hypocritical but just a dumb idea that the answer is more racism and discrimination. Interestingly, that seems to be the mechanism by which any of these programs are trying to change the numbers. This is the answer to the call of, "Do something! Anything!". It is short sighted and myopic and only engenders more animosity.

Dude, I’m going to apologize. Not for my stance, but for copping out. This is a discussion in which neither of us will ever change one another’s mind, and despite the fact that I absolutely love debate and discussion with you, we are far enough apart on this issue that even level headed debate could turn south quickly, and I don’t want that. Please accept my respect for your views (not sarcasm) and thanks in advance for allowing me to withdraw from this discussion. I love you man. (Also not sarcasm.)

 

[Tex Koder]

 

[Diem Turner]

Dude, I’m going to apologize. Not for my stance, but for copping out. This is a discussion in which neither of us will ever change one another’s mind, and despite the fact that I absolutely love debate and discussion with you, we are far enough apart on this issue that even level headed debate could turn south quickly, and I don’t want that. Please accept my respect for your views (not sarcasm) and thanks in advance for allowing me to withdraw from this discussion. I love you man. (Also not sarcasm.)

I would never assume it nor accuse you of saying something like that sarcastically (though I appreciate the affirmation and also the recognition of the inherent problems associated with text based communication). At minimum you would have to demonstrate yourself to be a bad faith actor before I did that and you have only demonstrated the opposite in the time that I've known you. I definitely share your concern over the possibility of debates on controversial topics boiling over, irrespective of how level headed the interlocutors may think themselves to be. Emotions can get the better of anyone and sometimes it is better to just let three be an even number as the possibility of losing something you actually care about just isn't worth it.

Love you brother.

 

[Diem Turner]

I'm out, but certainly will enjoy the conversation.

Likewise... Can I share your popcorn?

Sorry to disappoint boys. Maybe next time.

 

[Jerold]

Sorry to disappoint boys. Maybe next time.

Dang it. I was going to live stream it too.

Seriously though that's why I love this place. Sometimes we all agree to disagree. AF is the best.

Rhetorical question here, I can appreciate Boeing falling on their sword, but what makes a retired admiral an expert on process or planes or bolts? Maybe flashing a couple of stars in the face of crisis helps.

The admiral mentioned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkland_H._Donald

 

[Dan B.]

Dang it. I was going to live stream it too.

Seriously though that's why I love this place. Sometimes we all agree to disagree. AF is the best.


Rhetorical question here, I can appreciate Boeing falling on their sword, but what makes a retired admiral an expert on process or planes or bolts? Maybe flashing a couple of stars in the face of crisis helps.

The admiral mentioned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkland_H._Donald

Hmmm… He only got his bachelors from the Naval Academy, but then got a masters from the University of Phoenix!
It’s clear to me now. He was chosen simply because his nickname is Kirk. That goes a long way to solving problems!

 

[Jerold]

Hmmm… He only got his bachelors from the Naval Academy, but then got a masters from the University of Phoenix!
It’s clear to me now. He was chosen simply because his nickname is Kirk. That goes a long way to solving problems!

J/K I noticed that too, I was expecting more like West Point or at least CSU Chico (party school). Probably something he could do remotely while still serving.

It's not uncommon for high ranking military to serve on the board of directors for companies. I worked for a company where the CEO was arrested and they instated an Ret. Admiral as CEO, he was on the BOD. He ran a river boat in Vietnam so running a company was pretty low key. Basically he was a stabilizer and was actually very good.

Just speculation and I hope the figure it out. As much as I kid about this stuff, it's really not funny. . . but the jokes are too easy.

 

[Dan B.]

J/K I noticed that too, I was expecting more like West Point or at least CSU Chico (party school). Probably something he could do remotely while still serving.

It's not uncommon for high ranking military to serve on the board of directors for companies. I worked for a company where the CEO was arrested and they instated an Ret. Admiral as CEO, he was on the BOD. He ran a river boat in Vietnam so running a company was pretty low key. Basically he was a stabilizer and was actually very good.

Just speculation and I hope the figure it out. As much as I kid about this stuff, it's really not funny. . . but the jokes are too easy.

Right?!? I’m all in with “Captain, we’re coming apart!” And Captain Kirk yelling, “we need more bolts Scotty, we need more bolts!”
Hey man, like I said…an actual Captain named Kirk goes a long way in the problem solving department.

 

[Saladshooter]

Right?!? I’m all in with “Captain, we’re coming apart!” And Captain Kirk yelling, “we need more bolts Scotty, we need more bolts!”
Hey man, like I said…an actual Captain named Kirk goes a long way in the problem solving department.

Why can I only give one like to a post?..... This should be gospel.

 

[Moirae]

I can tell you what's going on over there at Boeing...DEI. Or as I like to call it, DIE. Diversity, Inclusion & Equity. Read this. If this doesn't send chills down your spine, you probably no longer have a pulse.
https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2022-04-18-Boeing-CEO-Message-on-Equity,-Diversity-Inclusion-Report

Boeing is doing an awful lot of outsourcing. That particular panel that blew off the plane mid flight could be traced back to a company called Spirit Aerospace. Here...this is one of the contractors that is putting together planes for Boeing.
https://www.spiritaero.com/company/...usion/international-women-in-engineering-day/
View attachment 342814

But it's not just Boeing. A couple of years ago, United Airlines set a goal that 50% of their hires for pilots are to be women or people of color (if memory serves, they're actually coming in above that target at 70-80%). They are literally promoting flight attendants to pilot training (in at least once case they rehired a flight attendant that had been fired with the explicit notification that this person is never to return to United and put her into the pilot training program).

Let that sink in for a moment. No seriously. Let that marinate for a minute or two.

I honestly could not care less about the color of my pilots skin. It's the furthest thing from my mind. The only thing I care about, is that airline companies are hiring the best and most highly qualified pilots with the most amount of flight hours that they can get their hands on. Full stop. No other factors should be considered. EVER.

Presently, United is always pairing up their diversity hires with veteran pilots so that at least one person in the cockpit knows what they're doing and how to stay calm in case of emergency. But how many years do you think they have until the enough veterans have aged out of the system and the number of DIE hires make up a majority of the pilots they have on staff and the chances of having two midwits at the helm of the plane that humans are sitting in makes it all but a certainty? Flying in commercial aircraft either already is or will very soon be, no different from playing Russian roulette. And no, I'm not being hyperbolic.

If you hire on any criteria other than competency, you WILL get less competency. Probability? 100%.

This poop is scary! I also had my first ever canceled flight because of this Boeing max 9 fiasco. I guess I had to get my cherry popped at some point

I’m going to partially disagree.
I do not totally disagree about your stance on these mandated programs, and I do completely understand your argument about the premise being inherently “racist” if an organization is forced to comply with a federally mandated program that favors the hiring of one race over another. It’s the reasons behind their implementation that matter and our overtly and endemic racist practices over the course of the last couple of hundred years here in good old ‘Murica, and that’s what made something necessary. If these programs didn’t exist a black man with a PhD in quantum physics could stand less of a chance of being hired than a caucasion with a masters degree. That’s historical fact, can’t be disputed, and the numbers go back to the origin dates of our infant, racist nation.
Also, when people say that those programs are inherently “racist” by their very definition, then no, you are not wrong. By definition. But when people vocally oppose these kinds of programs (going back even before Affirmative Action) I take a bit of offense, even if I don’t totally agree with all of a programs mandates, or the very obvious observation that they’re not fair to equally qualified people applying for job or trying to get into a university. That said, I still don’t think any white guy or gal in America has the right to call these programs racist yet. Because they can’t pretend to understand the obstacles that any person of color has, and continues to face today in this country. From Boeing to the local mom and pop business down the street you can still hear people say “I ain’t going to hire that freak” etc., etc.
Any Caucasian in the United States has a long way to go before they have the luxury of complaining about being discriminated against, IMO. Or in using the word “racist” when they feel it applies to them. A white person has no real understanding of racism because their family members weren’t being strung up in trees due to the color of their skin, and that was still happening in a shockingly recent period.
I’ve never met anyone on this forum in person, but I’m assuming you’re a white dude. And white dudes everywhere might take a bit of solace knowing that today, our right wing racist Supreme Court is striking down these programs as new cases arrive on their docket, so there’s that. There is hope after all for all of the suppressed and discriminated against white people everywhere.
I fully understand the problems with WOKE movements and the frustration and even anger that people have with them. Much of it is ridiculous and way over the top, and I get that. But it’s very unfortunate that in 2024 we still need these kinds of programs and legislation to overcome the inherently endemic racist and exclusionary hiring practices that have and continue to be subscribed to, and also against racism in its purest form.
Miles Davis went to Paris.

As a black man I agree with you and I definitely don't consider myself "woke".

 

[Jerold]

This poop is scary! I also had my first ever canceled flight because of this Boeing max 9 fiasco. I guess I had to get my cherry popped at some point

My wife and I got cancelled several times for the same trip in the SWA meltdown last year. They kept bumping us to a new flight and we just bailed. Lucky for us because we would still be stuck in another state if we had left.